Dr. Keith Keating:
On paper, it's easy to categorize L&D as a "cost" because we don't sell a product typically, we don't book revenue. But when a learning function is operating at its best, it's not a cost, it's a catalyst.
Anne-Marie Henson:
Hello and welcome to Accounting for the Future. I'm your host, Anne-Marie Henson, and today we're going to explore how learning and development is evolving into a strategic engine for innovation and long-term business growth. Here to share his insights, I want to welcome Dr. Keith Keating, Chief Learning and Development Officer at BDO Canada. In addition to Keith's role at BDO, he's also the Academic Director for the University of Pennsylvania's Chief Learning Officer Doctoral Program, and the author of not one, but two books, the Trusted Learning Advisor and Hidden Value: How to Reveal the Impact of Organizational Learning. Keith is an advocate for talent development and leverages his platform to emphasize human talent as a cornerstone of organizational success. Keith, we're so thrilled to have you on the podcast today, and I think it's also the first time that I have a Doctor on this podcast, so I'm really excited.
Dr. Keith Keating:
Just don't ask me any medical questions because I'm not that kind of doctor.
Anne-Marie Henson:
So nothing about my weird rash?
Dr. Keith Keating:
No.
Anne-Marie Henson:
I'll leave that for another doctor. Okay, fine.
Dr. Keith Keating:
Thank you for having me.
Anne-Marie Henson:
Of course. Really excited to have you. And I think I just want to highlight that your role as Chief Learning and Development Officer at BDO is a first for BDO as well. It's not a role that existed prior to you arriving here, so it's been great to see our own evolution throughout the years in terms of emphasis on L&D, or learning and development. But I'm excited to find out more on your side. So I guess let's start off with a little question about you and your background. What first sparked your passion for learning?
Dr. Keith Keating:
I can tell you that it did not start when I was young. And so, you may not know this about me, but I'm actually a high school dropout.
Anne-Marie Henson:
I didn't know that.
Dr. Keith Keating:
Yes - little "fun fact" in quotes. I struggled significantly with school for years, and high school dropout wasn't just part of my story, it was my story for a long time. And it was the beginning and also the end of how I saw myself, and I was ashamed of it for years. I hid it, I let it define me. But today, it's the beginning of my story, but it's not the end. And so my view on the value of learning is deeply personal because, for a long time I didn't believe that I was capable of it. As I said, I struggled in school. I was told I wasn't capable, directly and indirectly, that I wasn't smart enough. I wasn't cut out for traditional education. And for a long time, I really believed it.
And it wasn't until early adulthood that I realized that the problem wasn't me. It was how I was being taught and the moment that I learned how to learn, everything changed for me. And it was like someone handed me the keys to my own future and learning stopped being something that made me feel broken and something that made me feel powerful. And so, that journey has shaped everything that I believe about learning and my passion for it, because when you've been someone who is counted out or overlooked or underestimated, it changes how you see people in general. And I find that it makes me more hyper-aware of those invisible barriers that others might be facing.
And it makes me ask questions like, "Who are we missing? Who's not being developed, who's not being thought of in this process?" And so, I'm constantly rooting for the underdog because I am one. I still consider myself one, and I know firsthand what the power of learning can truly unlock for somebody when they're given a chance. So, long story short, that's why I believe so deeply in this work. It's why I push so hard for learning to be seen, not as a cost center, not as a perk, not as a nice to have, but as something that's life-changing. It's business critical for our growth and our opportunities. So it's a long-winded answer to your question.
Anne-Marie Henson:
I'm almost speechless, which doesn't happen a lot, but it's such an inspiring story, Keith, and thank you for sharing. And maybe the fact that you learned differently than others, not in a traditional environment of school, and it took you a while to get there, is probably what helped spark that passion. Right?
Dr. Keith Keating:
Mm-hmm.
Anne-Marie Henson:
I think there's a recognition that not everyone learns the same way. Not everyone can just open a book and memorize it and grasp the concepts really easily. So, the importance of the inclusive learning programs is, I think, critical. So, thank you for sharing that. It's quite inspiring. You talked about something in your response there that actually leads well into my second question. So, this podcast is about accounting for the future. A lot of our listeners are in the finance function, either as auditors or CFOs. And like the finance function, oftentimes, I find L&D has been viewed as a cost center, to your point. It's not something that's viewed as being revenue-generating or adding significant value. It's a fundamental, it's a necessary evil to have in an organization. What's your perspective on this, and how would you say that this has evolved over time?
Dr. Keith Keating:
So, there's two phrases that you used I want to pick up on. So, the first is support function. And I think this gets misunderstood or worse. We get dismissed, and not just us, but finance, IT, marketing, when we're called a support function, it tends to lead this idea that we are secondary or that we're less strategic. But if you unpack what a support function means, well, it exists to enable the business. We support the business. And so, in the case of learning, we support the single most important resource in any organization, its people. We're not supporting the business. We're supporting the people who drive the business, the people who innovate, who serve clients, who manage risks, who lead teams, who adapt to change, who deliver results, who do all of these things that make a business successful. And so if we step back, it's not a side role. It's central to the organization's success. So, I personally am not offended by ‘support function’. I get offended when people think that that means you're something secondary when I think that we're actually a driver.
So, the second phrase that you used that I had also used is cost center. So if we flip the language from support function to cost center, that's where things get even more trickier because, on paper, it's easy to categorize L&D as a cost because we don't sell a product typically. We don't book revenue. But when a learning function is operating at its best, it's not a cost, it's a catalyst. A strong L&D function helps to reduce turnover, increase productivity, close skill gaps, build future leaders, improve customer experience. I could go on and on and on. And these aren't soft outcomes. These are tangible business outcomes.
So, to go back to your original question, I think the mindset is starting to shift, slowly but surely. BDO is a great example. This role didn't exist before. I would say the function that existed here before was largely in an order-taking capacity. Whereas now, we're seeing an evolution where we not only have a seat at the table, but we are building our table, we're inviting executives to come and sit with us. We're developing a learning culture. And so, leaders are starting to recognize in general that learning isn't just a perk, it's a performance lever, it's a retention strategy. It's a competitive advantage when we're filled with such significant change that's going to be happening and continue to happen in our industry and all the industries.
So, I'll wrap it up and just say, I'll proudly say that learning is a support function because what we support is the engine of the business, it's the people. And when you invest in people, the return isn't just financial, it's cultural, it's strategic, and it's enduring for what I call and what most leaders should be calling the most important resource being the people.
Anne-Marie Henson:
I totally agree with you, and this applies to I'm sure all organizations, but especially when you're thinking about professional services, we don't manufacture widgets, we don't sell hardware, we sell know-how, we do. Know-how comes from people, so if you're creating this environment that encourages and enables individuals to learn, to be curious, to try to take on a new skill, that can only lead to good things in the future and create a great culture. So, that's great to hear. It's great to see BDO's own journey and hopefully a lot of other organizations out there are starting to see the same thing.
In your latest book, Keith, Hidden Value, which I think you had a copy of, How to Reveal the Impact of Organizational Learning... There you go... You talked about the evolution of CFOs and their role in learning and development, which is a great topic. We've had a couple of podcast episodes in the past about the ever-changing role of the CFO, so I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on this. How can CFOs find value in organizational learning?
Dr. Keith Keating:
The first comment I'll make is, I think the CFO role is quite exciting and I, like many, probably didn't view it with the respect that it deserved until my doctoral research. So, if you look at the media and you look historically at CFOs, traditionally, it's going back, I'm thinking 80s and 90s movies, it's male-dominated. They have glasses, their glasses tend to be broken, and there's some tape holding it together and they have pencils and there's the nickname pencil pusher. Fast-forward, that, on average, if you look at Fortune 500 companies, 25% of CEOs were former CFOs. And it used to be that the CFO was it. That was the pinnacle for that career. Now, CFOs have a career path beyond that, to being CEOs. And that's because the CFO is such a critical and integral role in any organization, and the CFO is responsible for understanding the value of every component of that business.
And so, that was what I was curious about because... I'll share a quick backstory. I was head of learning at a Fortune 500 company, and one year, we had a significant cost savings and we had some healthy potential ROI metrics, and I was really proud of it and I wanted to go and brag about it to other leaders. And I was told, "Do not tell anybody, because if you tell finance, then they're going to reduce our budget by the amount of cost savings and then they're going to expect us to replicate that ROI every year moving forward. We just can't do that. So don't tell finance, especially." And so, I reflected on that and I realized that I had never had a relationship with finance or the CFO. And I have been taught in my industry learning and development to fear finance and to fear the CFO because the CFO is the one that cuts our budget.
So, at that time, I was looking for my doctoral research and I thought, "This is a perfect research topic. Let me go out and understand what CFOs' perspectives are of organizational learning. And then also let me understand about the budgets and how the budget works from their perspective to answer the question, do CFOs truly cut our budget and is L&D the first budget to get cut?" And just - spoiler alert, it's not the first budget to get cut. It just happens to be that that's all we see, and so, we take it personal as if it's being done to us. And largely, CFOs said to me in the research, "We don't get that granular in your budget. We may say, 'Take 10% across all organizations within the firm, and then whatever the individual organization does, that's up to them.'" But no one had ever said, "Yes, we're specifically targeting learning budget."
Anyway, long story short, too late, here are some of the results. All the CFOs shared that they believe in the importance of learning. They see people as a key strategic asset and they recognize the role learning plays in building confidence and enhancing retention and all these things. But they also admitted that learning isn't a top priority for them when it comes to resource allocation. What it comes down to is there's a difference between abstract and concrete beliefs. Abstractly, CFOs told me, "Yes, of course learning is important. Who's going to tell you learning is not important?" And then when I drilled down and said, "Okay, well let's talk about how much did you invest last year in your people from a learning development perspective?" No one can tell me that number off the top of their head.
But then, I followed up with the next question, "How much did you invest last year in IT?" And they were able to tell me that number. And so, it just gives a little bit of indication to abstract versus concrete. "Yes, people are our most important resource, but I don't know how much we actually invest in them." "IT, not our most important resource, but I know that we invested $23.5 million last year in IT." So, the gap isn't that there's a lack of belief. I think part of it is about visibility, and that's where L&D has to step up a bit.
Some of the other items I uncovered in the research were, CFOs don't just want data. We tend to send them an Excel spreadsheet and it's got our ROI metrics, which, what I uncovered was, CFOs aren't going to take our ROI metrics. It's not something that they can repeat. It's not something that they're going to publish on any of their financial statements. And so, the outcome was they said, "You can send us this data. It's great. I don't really know what to do with it, but what's the story? What's the story behind the data? How are you actually impacting a team? What program made a difference? What life did it change? Who did it help get promoted? What about the human side behind these numbers that you're giving us?" And ultimately, what it uncovered was, when we pair meaningful evidence with the story, that narrative becomes a much more powerful currency. So, I was really surprised to uncover that CFOs weren't something to be feared, that they wanted the story behind the data, that they wanted more of a partnership with us.
They don't want L&D operating in a silo. But also, none of the CFOs I met with had a relationship with learning. And so, when I asked them to unpack that a little bit more, and this was a brilliant response, one CFO said, "I have so many fires at my feet that I can't care about what you care about. You have to make me care, and in order to make me care, you have to put forth the effort to build a relationship with me and to tell me the meaningful story with your data." So that was one of my biggest takeaways, and I'm quite a big advocate now of sharing within the L&D community, "Don't fear the CFOs. Our budget is not the first budget that gets cut. Everybody's budget that gets cut, they all think the same thing. Sales, marketing, HR, it's not the first budget. Typically, it's hidden within other budgets and no CFO is targeting us, and build a relationship with your CFO."
Anne-Marie Henson:
That's such great advice. And it is very much actually in line with discussions that I've had on previous episodes about the CFO role evolving in more one of a CVO, Chief Value Officer, which is less about analyzing and picking out historical numbers and asking why there are variances or why we didn't meet budget and looking more at what value was created. Understanding that value can be created in more than just growth in revenue.
[Keith points at his book Hidden Value: How to Reveal the Impact of Organizational Learning] Exactly. There you go.
Dr. Keith Keating:
This book is perfect.
Anne-Marie Henson:
It ties in perfectly. Exactly.
Dr. Keith Keating:
And that's why I wrote the book is, I wanted to give learning a language, a common vocabulary to use that aligns with what the business tends to be using, so that we're not just coming up with our metrics over here. And I think to build on that point about the Chief Value Officer, I think that every one of us needs to be focusing on value. And what really inspired me to write, ultimately, the book was that we have been using, for the last decade or so, we live in a knowledge economy, meaning that our knowledge is a commodity for us. And yes, that's true, but because of these devices, because this device has more knowledge than I'll ever be able to have, it's now about what do you do with the knowledge you have, the experience you have, the technological tools that are available at your disposal to make you more efficient, more effective, more knowledgeable? How do you pull all of those together to create value?
At the end of the day, I think every one of us has a responsibility to be thinking about value creation, value seeking, how do you measure your value, and how do you tell the story of your value? That's going to be the key differentiator for us. I know that people are worried about AI taking their jobs. I'm of the mindset, it's not AI that's going to take your job. It's the person that knows how to use AI and the person that knows how to create value and articulate that value in a way that others can understand.
Anne-Marie Henson:
Right. Really, really good point. And I want to ask you a question a little bit in line. You talked a lot about the importance of L&D building relationships with CFOs and the finance function. In a lot of organizations, as you mentioned, there are many different departments or service lines, business units, whatever you want to call them. There's sales, there's production, there's marketing. So what do you think organizations can do to make sure that L&D becomes a central pillar, and a little bit, to your point previously, isn't just this thing on the side that we sometimes have to think about and check a box that we completed it at the end of the year, but that it really becomes central to an organization?
Dr. Keith Keating:
The first step is to stop treating it like an afterthought. Too often, learning is brought in at the end, after the decisions have been made, after a change is announced, after a strategy is set. By then, it's too late for us to help shape anything, and then learning becomes reactive instead of proactive. A lot of the times, when learning is given an order to execute, it's actually not a learning problem to be solved. It could be cultural, it could be behavioral, it could be procedural. So to truly integrate L&D into the business, organizations need to do three things. One, involve L&D early and often. Invite your learning leaders into the room where strategy is being shaped, not just when it's time to roll it out. Because when L&D can understand what the business is solving for, then it can align those efforts from the start.
Number two, shift the mindset from deliverables to value. And so, I want to encourage leaders to move away from asking, "What training can we create?" to, "What problem are we solving, and how can learning be part of that solution?" Because this shift alone transforms L&D from being a support function into being a strategic enabler. "What problem are we solving and how can learning be part of that solution?" And then number three, hold learning accountable to business outcomes. And what I mean by that is, learning shouldn't be measured by butts in seats or satisfaction scores. It should be measured by the outcome that it enables: employee retention, productivity, engagement, capability, client impact, client experience. When you start tracking that kind of value, then we earn our place at the table because it's not just supporting the business, it's driving it. So at the end of the day, if people are your competitive advantage, and most organizations say that they are, then L&D isn't optional. It's an infrastructure. It's the operating system for growth, for agility, performance. But it only works when it's embedded into the strategy, not bolted on as an afterthought.
Anne-Marie Henson:
Well, I'm really happy to hear you say that and happy to see already even at BDO, in a pretty short time that you've been here, some changes that we've made at integrating L&D at much, much earlier stages. So, I'd like to ask you a little bit about what you've been doing at BDO so far, and how you can ensure that we integrate innovative learning, new ways of doing things? You talked about AI, which has already had and is going to continue to have a huge impact on organizations and what they do, and how do you align those with what I would call pretty rigorous compliance standards? Accounting firms have to abide by a number of regulations, and there's a lot of oversight into what we do, which is great. Sometimes innovation can conflict with compliance. So, how do you marry the two?
Dr. Keith Keating:
As you know, at BDO, we take innovation seriously, but we also take our alignment even more seriously. So for us, innovative learning isn't about flashy tech or trendy formats. It's about solving real problems in ways that are both impactful and compliant. And we start by grounding every initiative in the business need. And if it doesn't tie back to a firm-wide strategic priority, which is growth, leadership and AI, then we don't move forward with it. That's the first filter.
But innovation itself doesn't give you just a free pass on risk. We work closely with risk and legal and compliance from the start, just like we want L&D brought in at the start, they're brought at the start, not at the end to make sure that what we're building meets our regulatory standard, that it protects our brand, that it protects our clients, and that it reinforces our firm values. And so when you have that partnership with risk, legal, compliance, I call it the protective, proactive partnership, it gives us room to be creative without crossing any lines. So for us, compliance isn't a blocker, it's a boundary, yes. But great design can thrive within those boundaries.
Anne-Marie Henson:
I think it brings back the importance of the collaboration amongst multiple stakeholders, business units or departments to make sure that everyone comes together at the earlier stages instead of, to your point, just being a blocker at the end and saying, "Oh no, you can't do this. Go back to the drawing board." That only creates inefficiencies and frustration, I assume.
Dr. Keith Keating:
And more time and more money, more resources.
Anne-Marie Henson:
Exactly. One of the things that I know I've learned from a lot in the past is, in my 20-year career at BDO, some of the things that I remember the most in my learnings is when I made mistakes and learned from them. I don't really remember the times where I just did a great job off the start and all was great. But I do remember those moments where I thought, "Oh, shoot, I should have done this differently. Or maybe this is incorrect." And having to evaluate what I had done, figure out a solution and move forward to trying to fix it. So it's a bit tricky, though, because again, coming back to compliance and risk and legal, there are consequences sometimes of making mistakes, but it's so important to learn through trial and error sometimes. So how do you encourage individuals to not be afraid to fail, but also maintain those high-quality standards?
Dr. Keith Keating:
For me, one of my favorite acronyms for fail is the following: so F-A-I-L, First Attempt In Learning. Michael Jordan, I think, missed something like 900 shots in his career. Now when you think of him, he's considered the GOAT, the greatest of all time. His belief is that he's only great because of those missed shots. And so, I love that you already identified, and I can't really think of when me failing wasn't part of my growth. And so, we have to have that. We need to have a safe environment for experimentation, but also by being crystal clear between risk-taking and recklessness. And so we encourage teams to test new approaches, pilot ideas, learn in real time, but always within an agreed upon framework that protects our people, our clients, and our brand.
And so the three ways that we do that is, one, we have clear guardrails. We'll work hand in hand with, again, compliance, legal, risk at the beginning, not the end. Number two is psychological safety. We let our teams know that failure isn't fatal, it's feedback. If a pilot doesn't work, it doesn't hit the mark, we debrief, we figure out what didn't go right. We iterate and we celebrate the learning, not just the success. And that goes back to the acronym again, FAIL, first attempt in learning.
It's also about having stop gaps in place. It's not like we're just putting individuals out into the field with client files and saying, "Go." We have people who are going to be reviewing the files. We have support systems in place that allow, should something have gotten through that maybe didn't work properly, we're going to catch that and we're going to get that fixed, and we're going to learn from it. And that leads us to the third piece, which is our shared accountability. What I mean by that is, innovation is everyone's job, but so is responsibility. We empower our teams to be creative, to stretch while staying grounded in our firm's standards, the values, and the obligations. And so, when you create a culture that values learning as much as the outcomes, then people start to take smart risks, not irresponsible risks, and they do it thoughtfully. So that's how you drive innovation and safeguard compliance. It's not an either-or, it's a both-and.
Anne-Marie Henson:
And FAIL is now my new favorite acronym. So thanks for sharing that. It's really great. I want to ask you a little bit about partnerships with other educational institutions in Canada, and I'd say actually in North America. We're quite lucky to have so many phenomenal educational institutions and some of which are really great partners for organizations like ourselves. And so, in what ways would you say partnerships with these institutions can help BDO or other organizations stay at the forefront of learning and this culture of innovation and curiosity?
Dr. Keith Keating:
I'd say those partnerships aren't just a nice to have. They're essential for any organization that wants to stay future ready. And here's why. No single team can go at it alone. And by ‘it’, I mean deal with the future. The pace of change is too fast, and the stakes, especially around what we do with, and compliance and risk are just too high. So at BDO, we're intentional about building our strategic partnerships that help us bridge the gap between academic insight and business application and technological advancement. So I'm proud to brag a little bit that we've partnered with institutions like Ivey Business School and Harvard to design leadership development experiences that aren't off the shelf. They're grounded in research and it's tailored to the realities of professional services, but more importantly, what we need at BDO to continue to evolve to being top tier, to support our clients and also the development of our leaders internally.
So these relationships, they keep us sharp, they keep us grounded in evidence and they're constantly evolving. I've gotten to experience this firsthand in academia as the academic director for the CLO program with the University of Pennsylvania. And so I see how important it is to have access to that applied research because it is real-time, and it can fuel the impact and the outcome of what's happening today. It's not just theory, it's strategic foresight. And that perspective helps me bring rigor into the design of our learning strategies while ensuring they remain human-centric. So, I think it's important not just from a learning perspective but from a cultural perspective, so that what we're doing is grounded again in research and science and practicality. And so, on the technology front, also a little humble brag that we are Microsoft's Partner of the Year in 2024, and we have a strong collaboration with Microsoft to help us explore how AI tools like Copilot can enable, not just productivity, but personalized learning, upskilling, compliance, adherence.
In summary, I would say the magic of these partnerships is that they help us balance innovation with integrity. We don't have to choose between being cutting-edge and being compliant. We can have both when we're co-creating with the right partner. And so, staying at the forefront doesn't mean that you're doing everything yourself. Satya Nadella introduced this concept I'm about to share maybe 10 years or so ago, and I love it. He says, "We have to evolve from being know-it-alls to being learn-it-alls." And this is what he equates Microsoft's turnaround to, with that philosophy and that mindset. Because Microsoft had this mindset that they were the experts, they were it. They knew everything and they didn't need to learn everything, and that ultimately was holding them back.
And the same applies to us from professional services. As you identified early on in this conversation, we are hired for our expertise. We are the service, we are the product. And with that sometimes can come a little bit of arrogance where you're thinking, "Yeah, I'm the expert in this and my clients are paying me to do this. I know everything I need to know." It is not possible for any of us to know everything we need to know. With the way that change is happening and will continue to happen exponentially, we cannot be know-it-alls, but we can be learn-it-alls. And so our partnerships with these institutions allow us to keep that mindset of being learn-it-alls.
Anne-Marie Henson:
That's great. And having myself had the opportunity to attend one of our Harvard programs at BDO, I was, I wouldn't say skeptical because you can't be skeptical of Harvard, but I was a little skeptical when I'd heard that they had designed a program with BDO in mind. That it was collaborative and that some of our global leaders, not just Canadian ones, had gone to Harvard with the leaders of that program and had designed something specifically for our partners, for future leaders. And I was blown away by the quality of what I saw. So, a good partnership where you share similar values, and you have that curiosity and you can innovate together and create together, I think just creates such a great partnership for the future. So, it's been great to see because it's not something that I thought was possible previously.
Dr. Keith Keating:
It's a win-win on multiple levels. Not only do you keep learning, but it's also a value proposition for your talent, because not everybody has access to Ivey or Harvard. And so for firms and organizations to make these relationships, nurture the relationships, create opportunities, it's a value add for being part of that organization or firm.
Anne-Marie Henson:
Absolutely. I have one last question for you, Keith. So, hopefully we've got some individuals who are listening to this and are now inspired and want to perhaps invest more in L&D in their organization. So what would be one piece of advice you could give to a business leader or a future business leader who wants to embed that growth mindset and innovative culture within their organization?
Dr. Keith Keating:
If I could offer one piece of advice, it would be this. Model what you want to multiply. You can't mandate a growth mindset. You have to live it. And that means you have to be willing to show vulnerability. You have to be curious, you have to admit when you don't have all the answers and treat mistakes as learning moments. If leaders want innovation and want learning to flourish, they have to go first. Cultural shifts through behavior, not buzzwords. When your team sees you asking for feedback, when they see you trying something new or navigating failure with reflection instead of blame, then it gives them permission to do the same.
And that's how growth mindset takes root. It's how innovation becomes part of the operating system, not just some poster that we put up in the hallway. So remember that fixed mindsets ask, "What if I fail?" A growth mindset asks, "What might I learn?" So, that one question can change everything. I know you asked for one piece of advice, but I'm going to tack on a second one. And if you're serious about building a culture of learning and innovation, buy my books. The Trusted Learning Advisor and Hidden Value are cheat codes for developing your talent function. You're welcome.
Anne-Marie Henson:
Thank you so much, Keith, for sharing that. That's great. And I do hope that individuals were inspired by this conversation. I certainly was. I always love talking to you, so thank you so much for your time and your valuable input today. I hope our audience appreciated this discussion as well. If you like the episode, please make sure you leave a review or a comment and click the follow or the subscribe button to stay tuned for new episodes. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in today and to all of our episodes. I'm Anne-Marie Henson, and this has been BDO's Accounting for the Future. We'll see you next time.